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NickJones
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:05 pm Reply with quote Back to top

2.5TDI AEL. Now on 272k.

It's still running ok and fairly good on fuel but starting is a problem when cold but not quite cold enough for glowplug.

I know this is a common enough issue but bear with me.

If the last run the car has done was long one, it'll start ok. If it's been doing local journeys for a few days it'll be very hard to start. It generally works better if it's got injector cleaner in it and has been that way for a while.

It runs fairly rough (coarse) when cold. It also nows smokes a bit at idle (white) which is a recent thing.

Timing has been checked recently and is spot on.

It is still running the original injector nozzles (never been apart) and I'm thinking that these are probably about done. They've had a good innings!

Can anyone suggest a source of decent replacements. I'm not looking for more power (though I wouldn't object!).

Also wondering whether to get the complete injectors overhauled/pop tested etc. I know for a V70 TDI which could donate a spare set to send away - any recommendations?

Cheers

Nick
 
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spink
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:12 am Reply with quote Back to top

frattelli bosio are the best ones going
 
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gib
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:45 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I have a pop tester you can borrow.
 
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NickJones
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:56 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I appreciate the kind offer of pop-tester! May well come back to you on that when I've figured out what I'm doing.

I have noted the Bosio name and their apparent popularity.
PP502 seemed to be the original one for the AEL but the Kerma website now seems to be calling these superseded and suggesting DL1019 or PP764 instead.

I've not found a European source for Bosio parts so far. No particular objection to ordering from the US other paying VAT on the transport costs as well. Though the $ is kicking sterling's ass at present!

Cheers

Nick
 
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spink
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:07 pm Reply with quote Back to top

http://www.dieselevante.com/

they do have a minimum order value of so much though,or at least used to.I cant remember how much it was offhand now though
 
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NickJones
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:01 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I have liberated a complete set of injectors from a Volvo V70 TDI. Mileage unknown but body damage seems to be what scrapped the car. They didn't want to come out so I made a slide hammer which worked a treat once I made the hammer part heavy enough!

As dieselevante don't ever answer my mails, I bought from ebay (possibly unwisely) what claim to be a set of genuine Bosch replacements. Apparently Brazilian made and come packed in plastic tubes with red ends.

My plan is to fit the new nozzles and check that they all function as expected before fitting.

Anyone ever tried the pop-testers from India that are common on ebay? I also contemplated making one but if the Indian ones work ok it would hardly be worth the effort......

Cheers

Nick

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NickJones
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:06 pm Reply with quote Back to top

A heads up for those who didn't already know......

The "Bosch" nozzles that crop up all over ebay in fairly convincing looking packaging are not Bosch but fakes. Says made in Brasil on the sides of them (which I understand some Bosch nozzles actually are) but I suspect they come from China. They two out of 5 I've tried certainly don't function as nozzles - they just dribble so badly it's near impossible to determine what pressure they pop at. I can't be bothered to even try the others.......

The Indian pop-tester is ok-ish. It will be better when I've taken it to bits and sealed all the joints properly. 1 out of the 5 spare injectors functions like a real injector (albeit at 165 Bar rather than 190). The others don't leak but don't spray very well either

Got some Firad ones coming now......

Nick

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dragonlfc
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:55 am Reply with quote Back to top

Hi nick
If you don't mind me asking where did you get
Firad nozzle from and at what price?
Darkside dose xflow in 0.216 standard ael size for 150 for 5
United diesel do full injector sets
Not seen firad ones for ve tdi only for pd
At my end all specialist want almost as much for setting as cost of nozzles
thanks pal
 
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NickJones
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:17 am Reply with quote Back to top

Hi,

Coming from Darwen Diesels @ £ 15.95 ea + VAT

Haven't got them yet but I was assured it is what they use in their own workshops and they are fine.

Also offered a German make DTP @ £ 18.45 ea + VAT.

I didn't ask what they charge to set up. I'm going to work on the basis that the new nozzles will bring the pop pressures back up a bit (were around 160 - 165 Bar) and provided they don't dribble, do pop properly and all have similar popping pressures @ 165 Bar plus they'll be better than the 276k mile ones in the car. I'm looking forward to trying them on the pop tester!

After my recent experiences I'm not sure I'd risk a nozzle swap without pop testing after, even though my tester can only see the first stage.

Nick
 
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dragonlfc
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:57 pm Reply with quote Back to top

thanks for replay mate
spoke to darwen diesels
they dont do setting up any more of any tdi 2 stage mechanical injectors
only common rail stuff they do,
rang few places in manchester ,they want to recon them, dont want to do work if i get nozzles, but whos nozzles they will use?
so what u planing mate is fit new nozzles on to yours injectors then see what pressure they pop first stage? and hope 2nd stage is with in spec?
if you could make tester from big bottle jack 12t would that be able to get pressure no to drop too much from 1st stage injector opening?
i was thinking last night i have few common rail fuel pumps, they produce 300bar on 400 rpm of pump, get electric motor to run it nutneed to see how to control pressure not to go too high , 3k rpm produce 1000bar
dont want to kill my self
i have same issue as you , that white smoke on star up, extra turns to start
if plugs are not on etc
just getting dti gauge etc from germany to set static timing with it.
my car will not talk to vac com genuine vac com for some reason?
i fitted 2nd hand fuel pump my power is back etc!
but that white smock is killing me
i had few 1,9tdi and they all used to start first tuch of a key , so ael should be same, i hope
 
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NickJones
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:08 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Nozzles arrived today so can't fault their service - only rang them yesterday lunch time!

Basically yes. Check first stage and hope second stage is good. Not perfect but probably ok. My hope was that spare injectors taken from the Volvo will have done less miles than mine (Now 276k) - the two I've had a apart do look good inside.

I wondered about using a common rail pump for extra flow to crack the second stage. More effort than I'm prepared to put in.

Have you tried Darkside Developments? They advertise a fitting/overhaul service which seems to work out at £ 150 for 5. They say they'll let you supply the nozzles too.

I'm not sure that you can set the pump timing with DTI on these? Should be possible to talk to the ECU on an AEL using VAG-COM. I can and I'm only using a cheapo ebay lead and the freeware. That doesn't provide access to the timing graph though.

Hopefully I'll get time to sort the injectors at the weekend - one of these days I'm going to run out of battery before the damn thing fires!

Cheers

Nick

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dragonlfc
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:37 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks mate
Will wait for your results on nozzles mate
let us know
for timing,it can be set by dti and correct vw adjuster pump needs to be 0.32mm lift at tdc,but its not a perfect way
My car want conect to vag com,i could be due to old pump having problems ?
I got whole spare ael engine took 2 injectors out and nozzles from outside do look good and clean.
Need to sort timing out before moving on to injectors
Please let us known you findings with new nozzles
are they true 0.216 nozzles?
 
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NickJones
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:53 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Update:

The Firad Nozzles work without issues. All 5 now pop between 175 & 180 Bar, cycle properly and don't leak at just under the pop pressure.

I tried cleaning the "Bosch" nozzles as I noticed the plungers were much stiffer than the Firad ones. This did have an effect. The first one I did then worked as well as the Firad ones. The second one was much better, but still wouldn't cycle properly unless I was really leaning on the tester handle to get the flow rate up. I then tried a third one and the plunger in that was so tight I struggles to get it out. A good clean in carb cleaner did help alot but still tighter than the others and though it did pop at 180 Bar (and didn't leak below that) I couldn't get it to cycle however hard I leant on the tester handle! Didn't bother with the other two. Still a fail.....

Nick

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dragonlfc
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:34 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Well done mate
Now cant wait till you fit them on to a car
And we see how its behaving, hope its good
As gold
Let us all known pal
Thanks
 
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NickJones
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:05 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Looking forward to trying them myself! Also very curious to see how the original 276k injectors (more like 277k by the time I get to them) perform on the pop tester!

I'll keep you posted.

Cheers

Nick

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dragonlfc
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:30 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks mate
I took one a part other day,not much in them
2spring,pin,specers inside
then you got that disc part where nozzle go on to
nozzle pin didn't like coming out,
I can get hold off spacers for tdi injectors
But need to build something that can build pressure for both stages
i am upgrading my glow plugs; taking out old vw push on conectors ,not giving .good contacts to plug
Got a spare set of glow plugs cut m4 tread
Will mod wires so ring conectors to each plug and nut holding it on
 
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NickJones
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:25 pm Reply with quote Back to top

So, an update.

Fitted the re-furbed injectors yesterday. Went fairly smoothly.

I was glad of my homemade slide hammer


cleaning the injector sockets is a nasty, difficult job. Especially when they (2 of them) are full of oil. I have no idea where that came from!


Old 276k nozzle as removed


They all popped between 150 and 160 Bar and would then just stream unless I worked the tester fairly hard when they would chatter properly. All were much the same and none actually seemed to leak.

I had to swap a new nozzle onto the original no4 injector as the sensor wires are very different lengths


Easy enough and that injector worked fine, popping at 180 Bar same as all the others


Runs better now - sounds less dieselly, smokes less. Be interesting to see whether mpg improves too - though it wasn't bad anyway.

Nick

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dragonlfc
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:34 pm Reply with quote Back to top

well done mate
how she starts from cold now?
hope dose nozzles last you 270k too
did you had a look at volvo pump conections?
mine started first turn of a key this morning, must be way too advanced

going to liverpool later on will stick to 65mph in 6th and see what trip metar dispays,
 
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NickJones
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:44 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Hi Dragan,

Started ok this morning without any glow plug time (as not cold enough) which would normally have given the starter a good work out so that's a positive sign!

Yes, I've had a look at both pumps. As you say, the cables are different with the Volvo one much shorter and a strange shaped plug whereas the Audi plug is round. Both are 8 way plugs with seven contacts actually used. Looks like it might be possible to swap the leads over where it fixes to the body of the pump but one of the 4 bolts that holds the plug on is a "security" one so couldn't get any further with that thought.

Some pics

1.
Volvo p/no.


2.
Volvo pump from engine side showing full cable


3.
Volvo plug


4.
Audi part no


5.
Audi plug


Hope this is helpful

Cheers

Nick

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dragonlfc
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:51 pm Reply with quote Back to top

hi nick
wires on volvo pump on plug color coded? audis are all black
would love to know what voltage volvo pump works with
but again if pump tops gets swaped over or just a motor inside pump
i think it would work, end of the day its a steper motor inside pump thats all

all we need mate is pump from audi 100 c3 tipe 2ltr td its a 5 pot pump too
and make ultimate ael with mechanical pump , only screw driver needed to get you more power ,all info on net


bay the way as i said
i went to liverpool tonight

drove 65mph in 6th 1950 rpm held my nervs and went slow
49mpg average on display
it must be still way advanced i was hoping to see 55mpg

on the way back sod the slow driving ,went down private road 120mph

mpg drop to 37
 
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gib
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:07 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Not been on here for ages and missed a couple of PMs on the subject. SO please check your inboxes if you have Pmed me.

I had 10 injectors to play with and took a load of measurement from them but its all in an excel spread sheet.
I have tried a search with no results, so does any one know how to share an excel file on line?????

Essentially I stripped each unit measured the parts then reassembled. Then recorded the results from Vagcom using mgr main Vs extrapolated mgr individual.

These were all pop tested but lost the readings before recording them on the spread sheet.

I have got the machinery at work to measure accurately the spring rate but have never bothered as I couldn’t find shims in the past.

Now we have shims it should just be a case of a calculation to work out what shims are required
At Dragonlfc
Shims, Do you have the calculation for sizing them, prices etc???


As a side note when stripping people realise the Low Pa shim is different to the High Pa shim.
Also its only the lower first stage opening that has a major affect ( mpg / emissions) the upper stage is now where near as critical for mpg or power on std set ups.

Static timing using a DTI is the most accurate set up way and can only be achieved with correct tensioning have a look at the ghost map when it has been set using Vag-com adjustments (I have timed a few in the past) and the tension is not correct . As noted the set point versus the returned figure ( 32 and 25 from memory) if spot on will always be neigh on perfect unless another factor is out.

I have the pin outs for the pumps if you need them and various spares including pins and housings also if I can find it the bosch 3 sided socket.
 
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dragonlfc
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:07 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Hi mate
Nice seeing you back
shims
no clue what sizes he has but got told if i need them he has them
lad is diesel specialist; i seen with my own eyes massive tray full of shims
They don't do much di injectors any more,all work coming in is common rail
For timing my ael
What i have done
I could not find any marks for tdc on gear box casing, fauld big v cut in fly wheel and small one too
so i took piston no1 3/4 up on compression stroke fitted glow plug adapter for comp test filled cylinder with atf nice and red;conected 1m length of clear
Tube to it and got tdc that way,highest point of oil in tube should be when piston is at its highest
And with that method big v cut in fly wheel was in a middle of a window in gear box casing
My cam was out by 5 6 deg ,culd not insert a tool
Moved cam back so tool went in,setted pump with dti to 0.32mm lift
And its starting first turn of a key perfect,no smoke,no ratling,pulls wrll from
Low rpm etc
but i think it could be still slightly advanced, lower fuel economy and starting way too well?
Would love to see timing with vag com
just to see how much is out,
Dident really understand your post
Is timing better set with dti or vag com?
My dti and adapter for pump is cheep set from german ebay
and you say correct tension?is that pump belt tension?
But at the moment it starts well drives good smoke free
 
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dragonlfc
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:24 pm Reply with quote Back to top

One more think
On spare engine i have i tried geting tdc
With dti in injector hole,made a small adapter from my pump setting tool
For mitsubishi diesel spung loded and could not get it due to
angle injector nozzle sits in and piston bowl
My car who ever has done cambelt job has done it paint and hope methods
Matematicly size of piston compare to size of 9 mm tube it was pushing oil
up should get with in 0.5deg of tdc
I might be way wrong but that was best i could come up with
I would love to see original tdc marking to have as reference in future
 
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dragonlfc
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:24 pm Reply with quote Back to top

One more think
On spare engine i have i tried geting tdc
With dti in injector hole,made a small adapter from my pump setting tool
For mitsubishi diesel spung loded and could not get it due to
angle injector nozzle sits in and piston bowl
My car who ever has done cambelt job has done it paint and hope methods
Matematicly size of piston compare to size of 9 mm tube it was pushing oil
up should get with in 0.5deg of tdc
I might be way wrong but that was best i could come up with
I would love to see original tdc marking to have as reference in future
 
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gib
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:11 pm Reply with quote Back to top

To find TDC you look through the large oval window (just above Big Ted). You have to be careful of parallax which means if you are around 6 foot tall climbing on top and manoeuvring to get a good view like wise if you are shorter than 5” 4.
Rotate the engine clockwise until you see a square cut out about 50mm long 10mm wide just behind the teeth on the flywheel. The TDC is about 100mm further around from this it is easy to miss.
The best way to get a good indication of location is to look at the Pump flywheel. The square stamped into the fly wheel will be close to 2 O’clock on a an engine that runs.
The TDC indicator is a V notch about 5mm deep / wide just behind the teeth on the flywheel.
The bottom of the V needs to be inline with the centre line of the oval window.

If you can’t find a TDC mark then go with this. The classic error which every one makes ( me included) is trying to find TDC.
You should never find TDC you should calculate it based on 2 points equally spaced on either side of TDC.
When a piston is about TDC 3-5 deg of movement is not noticeable as the piston is going from its up stroke to its down stroke.

If you can follow my rather crap picture below.
Stage 1
Get No.1 so it is about ¾ of the way on its up stroke.
Mark the Crank and Block (it doesn’t matter where for ease go for some where between 9-12 O’clock.
Mark your indicator ( the brown rod out of the top or liquid level in your case).
Stage 2
Turn the crank counter clock wise until the rod or liquid level is at the same point.
Mark the block using the crank mark.
Stage 3
Measure across the crank between the 2 marks on the block.
½ this measurement and then draw a line on the block perpendicular to the half way point. This is your TDC marker
Stage 4
Rotate clockwise until the mark on the crank is in line with the TDC marker


I will try in the next few days to get some pictures
 
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dragonlfc
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:15 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Hi mate
Thank you
I must be fair close as car runs good
Now for timing windows on box casing
I have oval as in your scrip at about 1ish clock
or just under a pump pulley
Then i have small round one under is there is actually 2 of same size on casing
then i have big square one at 3 ,not oval?
You said in your post (just under big ted ) dont get it
I dont know how to post photos on forum
So if you pm me your email or phone number i will send photos to you
Notch in pump pulley is at round 2 clock

Thank you
 
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AndyS2
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:54 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Dragon, if you get some nozzles, this is the place that fitted and checked mine

http://www.sheafdieselservices.com/

I think it was £15 per injector to strip, clean, rebuild and pop test.

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